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Expectations of visitors

  • 1.  Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-06-2020 12:06 PM
    Well where do I begin with this?  It seems like a new topic because when I did a search the only thing I could find for this pertained to staff however I am concerned with visitors, specifically here what I mean is dress.  I am in security at the National Gallery of Art in Washington, DC and it is appalling at what we see coming in our doors.  (The only thing which we are really told to be enforcing is footwear, they must have on shoes and not just socks.)  The most recent being back in November I spoke with a young man in the East Building then as he was walking away I noticed that he was wearing thermal underwear bottoms.  Well it would not have been so shocking but this is something which I have never seen as an outer garment, in public that is.  He did mention being from a certain city which is way on the other side of the country, so does anyone think he would have been able to board a plane dressed this way?  Also if he could afford a ticket or the gas it would cost him to drive this distance it seems that he should be able to afford proper trousers.  There was another occasion where a young woman I remember in the classical section with no top.  She was wearing canvas shoes, blue jeans and what appear to be something as a brassiere.  Now excuse this is not enough to qualify as a top.  Maybe the particular visitor thought this her bikini, well even if it was she was not at the beach or a swimming pool.  Now I could go on with others, but right now I have covered both sexes.  (If anyone reading this would like me to give some examples of anything that I have seen or have questions about any of this please let me know.)  Now if we are going to be asking them to cover their mouth and nose well then how about other parts of the body?

    ------------------------------
    Jerry Foley
    GPO
    National Gallery of Art
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------
    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 2.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 06-29-2020 09:43 AM
    As long as visitors' garments meet the gallery's requirements for clothing, I see no reason to police visitors in this way. Personal opinion on their clothing, particularly whether or not it is sufficiently modest, is irrelevant. If you feel your institution's requirements are insufficient, that is best addressed with museum administration.

    Your mask argument is specious; COVID-19 is not transmitted through the skin.

    ------------------------------
    Meredith Peruzzi
    National Deaf Life Museum
    Gallaudet University
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 3.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 06-30-2020 02:45 PM
    Meredith, Thank you for your response.  Now, I know that COVID-19 is not transmitted through the skin, what I mean is that if we are able to take notice of this, then how about other things?  Perhaps others feel that wearing under garments as though it was meant to been seen is acceptable, however I do not.  I can even remember my mother saying that she did not like to see someone take a baby out in just diapers, that they should put something else over it.  Also there have been times where it was necessary for me tell visitors that their trousers were too low in the back.  (Which would actually constitute as indecent exposure.) This has been with men, women and children.  Also if staff members are not allowed to dress anywhere near like these cases, then why is it being allowed among visitors?



    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 4.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-01-2020 05:57 AM
    Edited by Katherine V 07-01-2020 05:59 AM

    I understand that that's your personal opinion on modesty, but I agree with Merediths comment. As long as they are following your institutions guidelines (and I imagine those two scenarios are) then those visitors are fine. We all have ideas about what is "acceptable" to wear in public, but that's not what we're here to police as employees at a museum. 


    I also think that judging someone's garment like this presents a deeper issue. Already accessibility is an issue that needs to be addressed within the museum field, and many many people feel as though they are unwelcome at museums or feel uncomfortable in those spaces. I think a huge factor of that is how they are treated or judged when they come in, and judging somebody based on modesty contributes to that. Again, if they are following basic guidelines and aren't just coming in without clothes, I don't think it should be an issue. 


    Also, regarding your comment stating "we as employees are not allowed to wear that so why should guests" - in my position, I am not allowed to wear jeans or sandals. I wouldn't expect visitors to not wear jeans or sandals during their visit just because I can't 



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    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 5.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-01-2020 11:03 AM
    Exactly! Well said, Katherine!

    ------------------------------
    Hunter Klingensmith
    Visitor Experience coordinator
    Swaner Preserve and EcoCenter
    Park City UT
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 6.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-01-2020 11:55 AM
    Thank you for continuing with the discussion.  There was another post to me but it is not appearing here for some reason.  He was concerned as to what impressions children are receiving from what they see in public.  
    Now the statement about what our museum sees as acceptable is a very valid point.  Now what I am raising here is that perhaps we need to have a different standard and state it.   There have been occasions upon which I did point out a visitor's trousers showing something in the back which is indecent exposure.  They did not object to it but did what was needed to comply.  (I could go into more detail here but will not for now.)  When telling a supervisors about this they were always in agreement.  This is just like have to tell visitors to not touch the art and specifically children to not run or jump on furniture.



    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 7.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-01-2020 10:02 AM
    Hi Jerry, 

    Thank you for sharing your insights on the appearance of visitors at the National Gallery of Art. The NGA, like many other institutions on the National Mall, is free admission and by removing the barrier of cost of entrance to the museum, the institution is and should be seen as open to anyone who is interested to walk through the doors. However, it is comments like the ones you have just shared, that perpetuate the idea of museums being for a limited class and type of people. Outside of public indecency and proper footwear, museums should be spaces for anyone to come and experience the exhibitions on view. D.C. in the summer is no joke - it's muggy and hot and if you have planned an entire day out at the museums, you are going to want to dress for the weather. 

    I agree with Katherine and Meredith's comments wholly. We, as museum employees, should not be policing the appearances of the people who come into our institutions, unless it is a legal issue. We want museums to be inclusive spaces for folks regardless of what is on their bodies. As an employee of a museum but also a fairly frequent museum visitor, I would want to know that the security staff at the museum is interested in protecting me and my fellow visitors (as well as the art), rather than judging what I am wearing. Museums are often places of refuge, in addition to places of learning and exploration. Many times, I have ducked into an institution for a little bit of AC, but also to see what they had on display, after a day of doing something else entirely. 

    Jerry, your concern for modesty from the visitors who look to you for protection is concerning and worrisome. I hope that you will take the time to reconsider your stance and think of the thousands of visitors who come into the museum for a variety of reasons as people who belong in the museum, regardless of what they are wearing.

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    Sierra Van Ryck deGroot
    Education Programs Manager
    Poster House
    New York NY
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 8.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-01-2020 12:09 PM
    Sierra and everyone else commenting here,
    The only things which I am really concerned with on this are a matter of public decency.  This is not to exclude anyone.  It is just like having to tell people to not touch the art, or what is proper behavior.  Also as a man it is even more difficult for me to see a woman who is not being modest.  (On a side note here we do allow breast feeding and I have never seen that being done in a way which would considered as indecent.)   


    ------------------------------
    Jerry Foley
    GPO
    National Gallery of Art
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 9.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-01-2020 12:36 PM

    Jerry,

    While I am sure your intentions are good, your statements are falling in line with systemic racism and sexism.

    Rules regulating clothing because of "public decency" disproportionately target clothes worn by people of color (for example, the sagging pants law repealed in Shreveport last year). While it is entirely possible that the people in your example were white, the fact remains that these rules are typically racist in nature. They are also typically misogynist, as explained by the National Women's Law Center. Much like redlining and other forms of systemic racism, what passes for "public decency" arguments has a genuine background in policies targeting minorities.

    As for your statement that "as a man it is even more difficult for me to see a woman who is not being modest," I hope you will consider another line of work, where you only have to interact with people you are not attracted to, and not the full breadth of humanity your current position requires. This would also prevent you from seeing indecent art, such as Titian's Allegory of Love or El Greco's Saint Jerome.

    Finally, this discussion is not relevant to a museum forum. These are issues that you can bring up with your own institution, because every museum and gallery is subject to its own local laws and community morals. (I note here that it is legal for women to go topless in public in Washington DC, where the NGA is located.)

    Again, I am sure you are not intending to discriminate, and genuinely believe this is an issue of public good. I encourage you to consider that not everyone feels as you do, and that your standards may not align with what is best for an institution.



    ------------------------------
    Meredith Peruzzi
    National Deaf Life Museum
    Gallaudet University
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 10.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-02-2020 11:53 AM
    Meredith,
    Thank you for the response and explanation.  Now I do not mean to be racist or sexist.  All the cases which I am recalling were with Caucasian people.  (To even think about what color the people are is this not being racist?)  Now I did not know that it is legal for women to go topless in DC.  We did have a case this past year in which a woman totally stripped in the East Building.  Now my job description is "to protect art. people and buildings."   Also the idea of what people see in the art is one which I have had to consider myself.  (Several young visitors have even asked something like, "Why are they all naked?")  Fortunately this I can joke about.  
    Jerry



    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 11.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-01-2020 12:51 PM
    As a man, you should be responsible for controlling your "difficulty" with handling seeing women's bodies. They DO NOT have to dress a certain way to please you or keep you from being aroused, that is solely your responsibility.  Like has been said before, this seems like a policy decision that should be made by your institution, not a personal decision by you.

    ------------------------------
    Hunter Klingensmith
    Visitor Experience Coordinator
    Swaner Preserve and EcoCenter
    Park City UT
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 12.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-02-2020 11:59 AM
    Sierra,
    Thank you for the response.  It is not so much a problem of arousal on my part, but my job description includes 'to protect art, people and buildings.'  Also I remember visiting certain places in Europe and Asia, such as churches or temples were shorts are not even allowed for men or women.  
    Like you are saying it should be by the guidelines of the institution.  Perhaps therefore we need to have different or at least more defined guidelines.
     Jerry



    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 13.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-13-2020 09:47 AM
    Jerry,
    I have a real problem with this statement "On a side note here we do allow breast feeding and I have never seen that being done in a way which would be considered as indecent".
    There is no "indecent" way to feed a baby. That's what breasts are for. Speaking as a mother to four, now adult, children who breastfed everywhere I went (including the National Gallery back in the day), I lifted my shirt and fed my baby or toddler. I did not use covers as they tended to be flung off by the nursing baby which tended to be sort of like a waving flag. I hope you don't send nursing mothers to restrooms to feed their babies. Nursing should and can be done anywhere.

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    Lauren Furey
    Manager of Visitor Engagement
    Mariners' Museum
    Newport News VA
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 14.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-13-2020 07:50 PM
    Please Sierra,
    That is not what I meant.  We do not require nursing mothers to go to restrooms.  There are plenty of benches or couches around where they can be comfortable.
    Jerry


    ------------------------------
    Jerry Foley
    GPO
    National Gallery of Art
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 15.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-02-2020 01:08 PM
    Hi, as I read this thread, I am wondering if the standards of decency in clothing are sliding all the way down because of "social distance", working at home or not working, etc..
    In this day and age, there is an over abundance of cheap clothing, so getting the most basic elements of clothing is really not something out of reach for most people, and even those who are now unemployed probably still own the clothing from their working days. Despite this, I have seen people wearing underwear in public in the city. Women wearing bras and no shirt, boxer shorts and long underwear worn instead of pants by both sexes, etc..and men shirtless in the city. This was never considered acceptable clothing for a public place, and it leaves me wondering if some feel that because they are having no social interaction with others, they are as if invisible to others. Again, very basic, inexpensive casual clothing such as a tee shirt and pants or shorts or skirt are perfectly fine and nothing fancy or pricey is needed to show a basic respect for society while in public. A museum being a public place, I would expect that very basic standard to apply there.



    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 16.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-02-2020 01:36 PM
    This is a good article about the problems with dress codes: https://www.antiviolenceproject.org/2018/01/how-dress-codes-reinforce-systemic-violence/

    Hillary Brown
    Director of Communications
    Georgia Museum of Art
    University of Georgia
    cell: 706-247-0327



    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 17.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-04-2020 12:32 PM
    Actually the very basic in rules is all that expect.  Now this does mean if one is required to wear a top and a bottom that means the bottom (and/or top) should be covered.  Also to my point about this towards women it is not just to save me from embarrassment but them as well.  Do I need to be more specific on this? 

    ------------------------------
    Jerry Foley
    GPO
    National Gallery of Art
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 18.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-06-2020 12:07 PM

    Statement Regarding AAM Museum Junction Open Forum Posts by National Gallery of Art Security Guard Jerry Foley

    All visitors are welcome at the National Gallery of Art and there is no visitor dress code. Visitors to the Sculpture Garden and to the West and East Buildings (once the buildings reopen) are required to wear shoes and must be clothed. For the immediate future, they must wear face coverings.

    The posts on the AAM Museum Junction Open Forum by Jerry Foley (a security guard "GPO" at the National Gallery) represent his personal opinions and are not consistent with National Gallery policy and practice.



    ------------------------------
    Anabeth Guthrie
    Chief of Communications
    Press Office-National Gallery of Art
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 19.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-07-2020 08:31 AM
    Dress codes for public institutions like yours are based on liability and the protection of the institution. They have nothing to do with "decency" or the emotional comfort of guests. A man dressed in a bikini, shoes, and a mask would undoubtedly cause discomfort for many guests, but he is not a liability problem.

    This is not a question of whether anyone's judgement of appropriate dress is morally or ethically right or wrong. It is a constitutional issue. Just as one is free to offer an opinion as to whether their dress is appropriate, visitors are free, in a public institution, to express their opinion through their choice of dress.

    Next time you see a woman in a bikini top, or a man in a halter, consider why? Clothes are a projection of our identity. What do their choices say? Are they simply slobs? Hot? Rebellious? Insecure? Is it a political statement? An expression of gender identity? Who is this person? Can I tell from their clothes? 

    People are far more interesting than art. There is no reason they should not be as free.

    Cheers,
                   tod

    ------------------------------
    Tod Hopkins
    Technical Director
    Hillmann & Carr Inc.
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 20.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-07-2020 02:05 PM
    Tod and Christine, thank for joining in the discussion.  Now Christine here the price of a ticket is not an issue since we are a free institution.   
    However I do not feel that my views are just as everyone else sees them.  Such as suggesting I am in the wrong line of work.  Well at least I am taking a notice of people and their presence.
    Also it was pointed out that I was being racist and insensitive.  Well now in some cultures it is considered acceptable to allow children to run around unsupervised. (I know because of having resided in one for over 12 years.)  Well if I stop children from running inside or jumping on furniture would I be culturally insensitive?  Then there are others and we have noticed particularly from certain parts of the world who like to touch art, which is definitely not allowed and one of the major things I am paid to enforce.  Thereby doing my job am I being racist?
    Jerry Foley



    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 21.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-07-2020 02:16 PM
    Jerry - I don't think people believe that you are actively employing racist or sexist practices. However, many people on this thread have tried to educate you regarding why the language you are using and these ideas are problematic, including attaching articles that discuss the topics more thoroughly. If you aren't willing to listen & learn, then it doesn't seem as though there is a point in continuing this thread.

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    Katherine
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    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 22.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-07-2020 03:33 PM
    Edited by Jill DeDominicis 07-07-2020 03:33 PM
    Thanks to you, Tod, and a few others for trying to explain why this original post was problematic for multiple reasons. I've been watching it and cringing, to be honest. Museum security and staff do not exist to police what visitors are wearing, pass judgement on the style or state of their clothing, or assume they need to be spared from "embarrassment" due to their outfit. Protect the art, make sure no one gets physically hurt, and otherwise let people express themselves as they are free to do!

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    Jill
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    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 23.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-07-2020 04:28 PM
    As I'm seeing where this thread has gone, I am finding myself really puzzled at the offense taken by what Jerry said in his last comment. I am also wondering how a society can continue to exist without any common norms of what expresses respect for others. What Jerry expressed seems to me to be about a basic norm of decency, the following of which expresses basic respect for our fellow members of society. We get dressed and don't show up at work undressed or in our pyjamas out of respect for our colleagues and the society around us. The total absence of such basic norms does make think of a society that is coming apart.



    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 24.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-13-2020 05:55 PM
    Valeria,
    Thank you very much.  This is the main point which I was trying to make.  
    Jerry

    ------------------------------
    Jerry Foley
    GPO
    National Gallery of Art
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 25.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-13-2020 06:39 PM
    As has been repeated ad infinitum in this thread, whether "society is coming apart" because of short shorts and halter tops is not the business of a museum or its staff. There are plenty of venues for such discussion, but is out of place here.

    ------------------------------
    Meredith Peruzzi
    National Deaf Life Museum
    Gallaudet University
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 26.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-08-2020 11:10 AM
    Katharine,
    Thank you again for your response.  Now I am willing to listen and learn.  How about others, are they seeing what I am seeing?  Would it make a difference if I had any pictures to post?  Jerry

    ------------------------------
    Jerry Foley
    GPO
    National Gallery of Art
    Washington DC
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 27.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-07-2020 08:25 AM
    Hi I am a security officer at a museum and I see this also, the clothing some people wear. Yes I do a double take , but if it is what makes them comfortable and they have no problem with it then I just say let them be. Besides they I hope paid the money for the ticket to come in and enjoy themselves so why should what they wear be a big issue? If the clothing is not ragged or torn in unsuspecting places and not grossly stained with whatever, then just leave them to come to your museum and enjoy themselves spend time and money. The only thing is, is that do you have a certain dress code that the guests are to up hold? My opinion have a good

    Sent from my iPhone


    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more


  • 28.  RE: Expectations of visitors

    Posted 07-08-2020 12:17 PM
    Hello All
    I am really intrigued by the entire conversation. I see a lot of valid personal opinions which is great for both a professional and social dialogue. Together, through civil debate, we can help ourselves and our community grow. As each of you, I have my personal opinion on what is appropriate to wear when going to a museum, though what is appropriate make vary by type of museum (I work in a Military based Air & Space museum). I also understand that each institution should decide what is acceptable; and again that will vary by type of museum (public or private).
    Looking at this from Jerry's point of view I see the conflict between personal opinion and what may be vague instructions/criteria within an SOP that leaves too much up to each Security personnel. My suggestion is to get clarification from higher and proceed accordingly.
    But honestly, does anyone see an incredible opportunity (with all proper permissions of course) but to capture all this on photographs as the changing social norm. While we are all facing the changes implemented by COVID-19, what else is changing in our visitors to our institutions. People are interesting.

    V/r
    Brian York
    Curator
    Strategic Air Command & Aerospace Museum

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    Brian York
    Curator-Exhibits & Collections
    Strategic Air Command & Aerospace Museum
    Ashland NE
    ------------------------------

    AAM Annual Meeting & MuseumExpo, Baltimore, May 16-19, 2024, click to learn more