Open Forum

Hello museum friends,

I've noticed a number of folks who, in an effort to bridge the divide (I believe) over the removal of confederate statues making the argument, "they belong in a museum."

I'm an unequivocal "no" on this, and think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of museums - they are not reliquaries for white supremacist idolatry.

There's lots to develop here (the statues were erected long after the civil war and actually have no "historic" value, how would you feel walking into a museum to be greeted by a confederate, etc.), so I was wondering if anyone has yet wrote about it.

If not I might develop a piece a little more and share. But someone with a bigger mic than me might be able to intervene more effectively...

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

There have been some interesting articles and editorials recently published in The New York Times discussing this topic:

Trump Aside, Artists and Preservationists Debate the Rush to Topple Statues

Nytimes		remove preview
Trump Aside, Artists and Preservationists Debate the Rush to Topple Statues Mark Bradford, the renowned Los Angeles artist, says Confederate statues should not be removed unless they are replaced by educational plaques that explain why they were taken away. For Robin Kirk, a co-director of Duke University's Human Rights Center, the rapid expunging of the statues currently underway needs to be "slower and more deliberative." View this on Nytimes >

We Need to Move, Not Destroy, Confederate Monuments

Nytimes		remove preview
We Need to Move, Not Destroy, Confederate Monuments It's a summer of sequels. The culture wars are back. So is the civil rights movement. So is the Civil War. They were all in evidence in Charlottesville, Va., on Aug. 12, when a protest over the planned removal from a city park of a statue of the Southern Civil War general Robert E. View this on Nytimes >

Opinion | Confederate Statues and 'Our' History

Nytimes		remove preview
Opinion | Confederate Statues and 'Our' History President Trump's Thursday morning tweet lamenting that the removal of Confederate statues tears apart "the history and culture of our great country" raises numerous questions, among them: Who is encompassed in that "our"? Mr. Trump may not know it, but he has entered a debate that goes back to the founding of the republic. View this on Nytimes >

Keeping the monuments in place, in tandem with educational programs run by local educational institutions, which would include museums, would be an important opportunity to teach the public not only about the semiology of monuments ("what does it mean to have the figure perched on a pedestal?"), but the context and time periods in which the monuments were created/commissioned.  Keeping the monuments installed doesn't have to be about "hero worship," but could be about learning about ugly politics. As a point of reference, concentration camps have been preserved.

------------------------------
Noel Valentin
Permanent Collections Manager
El Museo del Barrio
New York NY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2017 07:18 AM
From: Alexander Tronolone
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Hello museum friends,

I've noticed a number of folks who, in an effort to bridge the divide (I believe) over the removal of confederate statues making the argument, "they belong in a museum."

I'm an unequivocal "no" on this, and think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of museums - they are not reliquaries for white supremacist idolatry.

There's lots to develop here (the statues were erected long after the civil war and actually have no "historic" value, how would you feel walking into a museum to be greeted by a confederate, etc.), so I was wondering if anyone has yet wrote about it.

If not I might develop a piece a little more and share. But someone with a bigger mic than me might be able to intervene more effectively...

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

History is not always pleasant.  This is a fact that history museums must deal with every day if they are to be more than simply celebratory repositories of happy evidence about whatever past their mission embraces.  Statues of traitors (which, as a descendant of Union soldiers is how I define these brutes) should not be honored on public property in a democracy.  Think of the outcry statues of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, etc., would cause.  Be that as it may, the Confederates and their historic ilk must be explained to current and future generations.  When that explaining happens with objects, museums are ideally suited to the task.  I never thought I'd see the day when these symbolic and actual promotions of hate, murder, assault, dictatorship, racism, and the like would be removed but I applaud it.  History is an ever unfolding perspective and we see this happening now.  Museums are ideal inventions for determining how and why to preserve the sad side of American heritage as well as the postive asepcts of it.  Context has been mentioned in this discussion and that is exactly how the statues need to be explained once on exhibit in a museum context.

Excellent discussion,

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Miller
Executive Director
Boscobel House and Gardens
Garrison NY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2017 09:40 AM
From: Noel Valentin
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

There have been some interesting articles and editorials recently published in The New York Times discussing this topic:

Trump Aside, Artists and Preservationists Debate the Rush to Topple Statues

Nytimes		remove preview
Trump Aside, Artists and Preservationists Debate the Rush to Topple Statues Mark Bradford, the renowned Los Angeles artist, says Confederate statues should not be removed unless they are replaced by educational plaques that explain why they were taken away. For Robin Kirk, a co-director of Duke University's Human Rights Center, the rapid expunging of the statues currently underway needs to be "slower and more deliberative." View this on Nytimes >

We Need to Move, Not Destroy, Confederate Monuments

Nytimes		remove preview
We Need to Move, Not Destroy, Confederate Monuments It's a summer of sequels. The culture wars are back. So is the civil rights movement. So is the Civil War. They were all in evidence in Charlottesville, Va., on Aug. 12, when a protest over the planned removal from a city park of a statue of the Southern Civil War general Robert E. View this on Nytimes >

Opinion | Confederate Statues and 'Our' History

Nytimes		remove preview
Opinion | Confederate Statues and 'Our' History President Trump's Thursday morning tweet lamenting that the removal of Confederate statues tears apart "the history and culture of our great country" raises numerous questions, among them: Who is encompassed in that "our"? Mr. Trump may not know it, but he has entered a debate that goes back to the founding of the republic. View this on Nytimes >

Keeping the monuments in place, in tandem with educational programs run by local educational institutions, which would include museums, would be an important opportunity to teach the public not only about the semiology of monuments ("what does it mean to have the figure perched on a pedestal?"), but the context and time periods in which the monuments were created/commissioned.  Keeping the monuments installed doesn't have to be about "hero worship," but could be about learning about ugly politics. As a point of reference, concentration camps have been preserved.

------------------------------
Noel Valentin
Permanent Collections Manager
El Museo del Barrio
New York NY

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2017 07:18 AM
From: Alexander Tronolone
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Hello museum friends,

I've noticed a number of folks who, in an effort to bridge the divide (I believe) over the removal of confederate statues making the argument, "they belong in a museum."

I'm an unequivocal "no" on this, and think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of museums - they are not reliquaries for white supremacist idolatry.

There's lots to develop here (the statues were erected long after the civil war and actually have no "historic" value, how would you feel walking into a museum to be greeted by a confederate, etc.), so I was wondering if anyone has yet wrote about it.

If not I might develop a piece a little more and share. But someone with a bigger mic than me might be able to intervene more effectively...

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

I see that a couple of posters have cited my post, but that post seems to have gone missing from the thread.  Administrators?

------------------------------
David Beard
Executive Director
USS KIDD Veterans Memorial Museum
Baton Rouge LA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2017 09:40 AM
From: Noel Valentin
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

There have been some interesting articles and editorials recently published in The New York Times discussing this topic:

Trump Aside, Artists and Preservationists Debate the Rush to Topple Statues

Nytimes		remove preview
Trump Aside, Artists and Preservationists Debate the Rush to Topple Statues Mark Bradford, the renowned Los Angeles artist, says Confederate statues should not be removed unless they are replaced by educational plaques that explain why they were taken away. For Robin Kirk, a co-director of Duke University's Human Rights Center, the rapid expunging of the statues currently underway needs to be "slower and more deliberative." View this on Nytimes >

We Need to Move, Not Destroy, Confederate Monuments

Nytimes		remove preview
We Need to Move, Not Destroy, Confederate Monuments It's a summer of sequels. The culture wars are back. So is the civil rights movement. So is the Civil War. They were all in evidence in Charlottesville, Va., on Aug. 12, when a protest over the planned removal from a city park of a statue of the Southern Civil War general Robert E. View this on Nytimes >

Opinion | Confederate Statues and 'Our' History

Nytimes		remove preview
Opinion | Confederate Statues and 'Our' History President Trump's Thursday morning tweet lamenting that the removal of Confederate statues tears apart "the history and culture of our great country" raises numerous questions, among them: Who is encompassed in that "our"? Mr. Trump may not know it, but he has entered a debate that goes back to the founding of the republic. View this on Nytimes >

Keeping the monuments in place, in tandem with educational programs run by local educational institutions, which would include museums, would be an important opportunity to teach the public not only about the semiology of monuments ("what does it mean to have the figure perched on a pedestal?"), but the context and time periods in which the monuments were created/commissioned.  Keeping the monuments installed doesn't have to be about "hero worship," but could be about learning about ugly politics. As a point of reference, concentration camps have been preserved.

------------------------------
Noel Valentin
Permanent Collections Manager
El Museo del Barrio
New York NY

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2017 07:18 AM
From: Alexander Tronolone
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Hello museum friends,

I've noticed a number of folks who, in an effort to bridge the divide (I believe) over the removal of confederate statues making the argument, "they belong in a museum."

I'm an unequivocal "no" on this, and think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of museums - they are not reliquaries for white supremacist idolatry.

There's lots to develop here (the statues were erected long after the civil war and actually have no "historic" value, how would you feel walking into a museum to be greeted by a confederate, etc.), so I was wondering if anyone has yet wrote about it.

If not I might develop a piece a little more and share. But someone with a bigger mic than me might be able to intervene more effectively...

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

As a user managed discussion list, anyone can place a post in moderation. Once a post is placed in moderation it is removed from the discussion until an administrator can decide what to do. We have since accepted your post and it is now again visible.

------------------------------
Cecelia Walls
Content and Editorial Strategist
American Alliance of Museums
Arlington VA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2017 12:56 PM
From: David Beard
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

I see that a couple of posters have cited my post, but that post seems to have gone missing from the thread.  Administrators?

------------------------------
David Beard
Executive Director
USS KIDD Veterans Memorial Museum
Baton Rouge LA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2017 09:40 AM
From: Noel Valentin
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

There have been some interesting articles and editorials recently published in The New York Times discussing this topic:

Trump Aside, Artists and Preservationists Debate the Rush to Topple Statues

Nytimes		remove preview
Trump Aside, Artists and Preservationists Debate the Rush to Topple Statues Mark Bradford, the renowned Los Angeles artist, says Confederate statues should not be removed unless they are replaced by educational plaques that explain why they were taken away. For Robin Kirk, a co-director of Duke University's Human Rights Center, the rapid expunging of the statues currently underway needs to be "slower and more deliberative." View this on Nytimes >

We Need to Move, Not Destroy, Confederate Monuments

Nytimes		remove preview
We Need to Move, Not Destroy, Confederate Monuments It's a summer of sequels. The culture wars are back. So is the civil rights movement. So is the Civil War. They were all in evidence in Charlottesville, Va., on Aug. 12, when a protest over the planned removal from a city park of a statue of the Southern Civil War general Robert E. View this on Nytimes >

Opinion | Confederate Statues and 'Our' History

Nytimes		remove preview
Opinion | Confederate Statues and 'Our' History President Trump's Thursday morning tweet lamenting that the removal of Confederate statues tears apart "the history and culture of our great country" raises numerous questions, among them: Who is encompassed in that "our"? Mr. Trump may not know it, but he has entered a debate that goes back to the founding of the republic. View this on Nytimes >

Keeping the monuments in place, in tandem with educational programs run by local educational institutions, which would include museums, would be an important opportunity to teach the public not only about the semiology of monuments ("what does it mean to have the figure perched on a pedestal?"), but the context and time periods in which the monuments were created/commissioned.  Keeping the monuments installed doesn't have to be about "hero worship," but could be about learning about ugly politics. As a point of reference, concentration camps have been preserved.

------------------------------
Noel Valentin
Permanent Collections Manager
El Museo del Barrio
New York NY

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2017 07:18 AM
From: Alexander Tronolone
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Hello museum friends,

I've noticed a number of folks who, in an effort to bridge the divide (I believe) over the removal of confederate statues making the argument, "they belong in a museum."

I'm an unequivocal "no" on this, and think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of museums - they are not reliquaries for white supremacist idolatry.

There's lots to develop here (the statues were erected long after the civil war and actually have no "historic" value, how would you feel walking into a museum to be greeted by a confederate, etc.), so I was wondering if anyone has yet wrote about it.

If not I might develop a piece a little more and share. But someone with a bigger mic than me might be able to intervene more effectively...

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

In my opinion, if there isn't a Confederate cemetery or specific park that could take them (like creating a similar park to Momento Park in Budapest), I do not see why a museum would not want them, even if created after the Civil War (many were created during the era of the Jim Crow segregation-important narrative the monuments bring). They are often well-crafted pieces, visually interesting pieces that represent important figures and ideas in America's history as well as today's uneasy society around politics and social issues, whether or not they align with the majority of contemporary societies ideals. Lots of art is known to offer challenging ideas and concepts that can make viewers uncomfortable, and this seems to be one you are letting get under your skin.

Many towns also have Union and Confederate statues and monuments as well as specific conflict monuments. Regardless of side, all of these monuments should be inclusive of the grander narrative of the Civil War to include opposing ideals of that time, a changing society, states rights, slavery, etc. Many societies through time have been built by slaves, conquered through devious means, been involved in political corruption, and led by people through terrible means. These historical figures are also a part of history that can be learned from and appreciated if nothing else than for what not to do. The statue can bring up these issues as well as help show the image of the person-visual learning! They can be appreciated and observed from an artistic point of view as well. Many equestrian figure statues even reminding me of the David, how it was created to be viewed from a downward angle-any statue can be talked about from how our physical perspective in relation to the statue can carry context, the importance of the figure, the figure and its implied ideals tower over you, etc.

The statues provide a narrative of the past and present and could provide endless opportunity for discussion and teaching moments in a museum - not reliquaries for white supremacist ideology. In a museum, the statues could be housed in a separate room or area with appropriate signage or staff relating what visitors what they are about to view (I'm imagining it similar to spaces in museums created for sacred Native American artifacts or sexual work from ancient Italy), as so many people are easily "triggered" today by words, images, and ideas that are not hyper-politically correct or contain ideology that they follow.

There are many arguments both the "left" and the "right" side will take on this issue and maybe the museum setting is the safe space for it. The monuments can be protected from people who want to desecrate it for what it stands for...or stood for, as the wider narrative a museum could provide will incorporate today's narrative. The issues and changing face of America today mirror the late 1800s and might be very important in the future. It's too early to "decommission" these and write them off.


------------------------------
Jennifer Johnson
Master of Arts in Museum Studies - University of Oklahoma Student

------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2017 07:18 AM
From: Alexander Tronolone
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Hello museum friends,

I've noticed a number of folks who, in an effort to bridge the divide (I believe) over the removal of confederate statues making the argument, "they belong in a museum."

I'm an unequivocal "no" on this, and think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of museums - they are not reliquaries for white supremacist idolatry.

There's lots to develop here (the statues were erected long after the civil war and actually have no "historic" value, how would you feel walking into a museum to be greeted by a confederate, etc.), so I was wondering if anyone has yet wrote about it.

If not I might develop a piece a little more and share. But someone with a bigger mic than me might be able to intervene more effectively...

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

This would make a great informative article. If you'd like to express your opinions outside of this private forum, please contact me. (Kathy 319-558-8741 or kathy@paretimobilewalls.com). I'd love to write about this from a professional's point of view. We're not a huge "mic" but it's a start.

------------------------------
Kathy Kyle
Sales
Central City IA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2017 07:18 AM
From: Alexander Tronolone
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Hello museum friends,

I've noticed a number of folks who, in an effort to bridge the divide (I believe) over the removal of confederate statues making the argument, "they belong in a museum."

I'm an unequivocal "no" on this, and think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of museums - they are not reliquaries for white supremacist idolatry.

There's lots to develop here (the statues were erected long after the civil war and actually have no "historic" value, how would you feel walking into a museum to be greeted by a confederate, etc.), so I was wondering if anyone has yet wrote about it.

If not I might develop a piece a little more and share. But someone with a bigger mic than me might be able to intervene more effectively...

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

To those in the "unequivocal no" side of this discussion, I feel prompted to ask: i) Is there no need for "interpretation" of these statues? ii) If not museums, then what institution(s) have the public respect & confidence required for this task? iii) Is the controversy over this matter (& related issues such as racism) not a "world problem" that museums must address in order not to become "irrelevant" to modern society as argued by Robert Janes (2009) in his book Museums in a Troubled World: Renewal, Irrelevance, or Collapse?.

I am in the "unequivocal yes" camp on this matter.  Please reflect on what is already 'out there,' for example at http://www.museumcommons.com/category/controversial-exhibits . 

Irrelevance of our institutions will not be a comfortable place for any museum practitioner.

------------------------------
Paul Thistle
Director/Curator (retired)
Stratford ON
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2017 07:18 AM
From: Alexander Tronolone
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Hello museum friends,

I've noticed a number of folks who, in an effort to bridge the divide (I believe) over the removal of confederate statues making the argument, "they belong in a museum."

I'm an unequivocal "no" on this, and think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of museums - they are not reliquaries for white supremacist idolatry.

There's lots to develop here (the statues were erected long after the civil war and actually have no "historic" value, how would you feel walking into a museum to be greeted by a confederate, etc.), so I was wondering if anyone has yet wrote about it.

If not I might develop a piece a little more and share. But someone with a bigger mic than me might be able to intervene more effectively...

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

​As David Beard noted, context and interpretation are everything. Because these statues date from either the 1890s or the 1950s-1960s, they do not belong in a context of the Civil War as such, whether in museums understood as buildings or in battlefields and cemeteries of the War.

They do, however, belong in museums devoted to the struggle for civil rights in this country. In this context, they would serve as examples of the lengths to which followers of a failed ideology may go to defend the indefensible. In this context, they can be examined without veneration for what they tell us about humanity's weaknesses and growth into strength and understanding.

These are my own thoughts, unrelated to the museum for which I work, so I will simply sign as myself.


------------------------------
Richard M. Alderson, III
Seattle WA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2017 07:18 AM
From: Alexander Tronolone
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Hello museum friends,

I've noticed a number of folks who, in an effort to bridge the divide (I believe) over the removal of confederate statues making the argument, "they belong in a museum."

I'm an unequivocal "no" on this, and think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of museums - they are not reliquaries for white supremacist idolatry.

There's lots to develop here (the statues were erected long after the civil war and actually have no "historic" value, how would you feel walking into a museum to be greeted by a confederate, etc.), so I was wondering if anyone has yet wrote about it.

If not I might develop a piece a little more and share. But someone with a bigger mic than me might be able to intervene more effectively...

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

Thanks for the thoughtful responses!

I am working on fleshing out my ideas into article length, but here is what I've got so far (sorry for the length!)

No, Confederate Statues Do Not Belong In Museums

By Alex Tronolone

"Confederate statues don't belong in public. They should be removed from public places and put where they belong, in a museum."

Over the past week, I have heard this argument being used in what my most generous reading is an attempt to reconcile the demand for the removal of Confederate statues with a strong belief in preserving history and the important role that museums play in preserving the past and interpreting it for the present.

In the least generous reading, this argument presupposes museums as a place to put away and forget, or doom to irrelevance, the objects placed there. Or perhaps museums are places that reflect our desires as a society and culture? And thus Confederate monuments constructed in heroic proportions of course belong in museums, as they are reflections of the kind of world we want to live in. Or, placed in museums, they can be contextualized, their message interpreted and used as a warning to future generations.

And yet can you imagine the audience for a museum that contained Confederate statues?

Ultimately, the Confederate States of America was an attempt to found a nation-state on the ideology of white supremacy. As all unnecessary deaths are tragic, the many unnecessary deaths caused by the Civil War should be commemorated. When wars are fought, it is the blood of the poor of every color that is shed.

But not all the deaths in the Civil War were unnecessary. The white men who seceded from the nation and declared war when their right to be barbaric towards other humans and become wealthy off of torture was threatened did not need to be spared. It was a minimum condition of justice for the millions enslaved, murdered, and brutalized by the regime of white supremacy for hundreds of years.

Is not the basis of fascism an extremist racist ideology? It is then no surprise that white supremacists chose these monuments to rally around. To put these monuments in a museum would only serve to reify their status as white supremacist idolatry. Considering the active nature of this struggle, to preserve the monuments in any fashion can only serve the interests that originally erected them in the early 20th century - that of white supremacy, racist terror, and violence towards the oppressed.  

Finally, this statement presumes that museums are not, in fact, public spaces. Museums are absolutely public places - they are places meant to be open to all. No amount of interpretation can change the meaning of these statues. They must be removed, and ideally, replaced with monuments to the enslaved and oppressed who persevered and ultimately ended the institution of slavery.

It is true that the monuments will be in museums. Hundreds of years from now, pictures of their toppling will be included in histories of the US Civil War, and of how the battle to defeat that awful force was waged well into the 21st century.

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2017 07:18 AM
From: Alexander Tronolone
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Hello museum friends,

I've noticed a number of folks who, in an effort to bridge the divide (I believe) over the removal of confederate statues making the argument, "they belong in a museum."

I'm an unequivocal "no" on this, and think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of museums - they are not reliquaries for white supremacist idolatry.

There's lots to develop here (the statues were erected long after the civil war and actually have no "historic" value, how would you feel walking into a museum to be greeted by a confederate, etc.), so I was wondering if anyone has yet wrote about it.

If not I might develop a piece a little more and share. But someone with a bigger mic than me might be able to intervene more effectively...

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

I think the question that's been raised here is key: under what auspices is the museum displaying the statue?  Is it a piece of art?  Is it a reference to history?

What sprang to mind when thinking of how to interpret such a statue was the USS Enterprise model as it used to be on display at the National Air and Space Museum.  Prior to its move to the Boeing Milestones of Flight Hall, it was in the gift shop, and had two panels: one interpreting it as a fictional entity - the starship Enterprise, her crew - and one interpreting it as a historical entity - the wooden model, its use in filming.  I could see a similar two-pronged approach to interpreting Confederate statues - the person and what they did, and the statue as its own entity, and the surrounding controversy.

------------------------------
Meredith Peruzzi
Washington DC
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2017 04:12 PM
From: Alexander Tronolone
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Thanks for the thoughtful responses!

I am working on fleshing out my ideas into article length, but here is what I've got so far (sorry for the length!)

No, Confederate Statues Do Not Belong In Museums

By Alex Tronolone

"Confederate statues don't belong in public. They should be removed from public places and put where they belong, in a museum."

Over the past week, I have heard this argument being used in what my most generous reading is an attempt to reconcile the demand for the removal of Confederate statues with a strong belief in preserving history and the important role that museums play in preserving the past and interpreting it for the present.

In the least generous reading, this argument presupposes museums as a place to put away and forget, or doom to irrelevance, the objects placed there. Or perhaps museums are places that reflect our desires as a society and culture? And thus Confederate monuments constructed in heroic proportions of course belong in museums, as they are reflections of the kind of world we want to live in. Or, placed in museums, they can be contextualized, their message interpreted and used as a warning to future generations.

And yet can you imagine the audience for a museum that contained Confederate statues?

Ultimately, the Confederate States of America was an attempt to found a nation-state on the ideology of white supremacy. As all unnecessary deaths are tragic, the many unnecessary deaths caused by the Civil War should be commemorated. When wars are fought, it is the blood of the poor of every color that is shed.

But not all the deaths in the Civil War were unnecessary. The white men who seceded from the nation and declared war when their right to be barbaric towards other humans and become wealthy off of torture was threatened did not need to be spared. It was a minimum condition of justice for the millions enslaved, murdered, and brutalized by the regime of white supremacy for hundreds of years.

Is not the basis of fascism an extremist racist ideology? It is then no surprise that white supremacists chose these monuments to rally around. To put these monuments in a museum would only serve to reify their status as white supremacist idolatry. Considering the active nature of this struggle, to preserve the monuments in any fashion can only serve the interests that originally erected them in the early 20th century - that of white supremacy, racist terror, and violence towards the oppressed.  

Finally, this statement presumes that museums are not, in fact, public spaces. Museums are absolutely public places - they are places meant to be open to all. No amount of interpretation can change the meaning of these statues. They must be removed, and ideally, replaced with monuments to the enslaved and oppressed who persevered and ultimately ended the institution of slavery.

It is true that the monuments will be in museums. Hundreds of years from now, pictures of their toppling will be included in histories of the US Civil War, and of how the battle to defeat that awful force was waged well into the 21st century.

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2017 07:18 AM
From: Alexander Tronolone
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Hello museum friends,

I've noticed a number of folks who, in an effort to bridge the divide (I believe) over the removal of confederate statues making the argument, "they belong in a museum."

I'm an unequivocal "no" on this, and think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of museums - they are not reliquaries for white supremacist idolatry.

There's lots to develop here (the statues were erected long after the civil war and actually have no "historic" value, how would you feel walking into a museum to be greeted by a confederate, etc.), so I was wondering if anyone has yet wrote about it.

If not I might develop a piece a little more and share. But someone with a bigger mic than me might be able to intervene more effectively...

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

As hideous examples of the racist heritage of America, one or two might be added to the collection of the Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia at Ferris University.

but just one or two.

------------------------------
Kevin Coffee
Oneida, NY
www.museplan.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2017 07:18 AM
From: Alexander Tronolone
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Hello museum friends,

I've noticed a number of folks who, in an effort to bridge the divide (I believe) over the removal of confederate statues making the argument, "they belong in a museum."

I'm an unequivocal "no" on this, and think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of museums - they are not reliquaries for white supremacist idolatry.

There's lots to develop here (the statues were erected long after the civil war and actually have no "historic" value, how would you feel walking into a museum to be greeted by a confederate, etc.), so I was wondering if anyone has yet wrote about it.

If not I might develop a piece a little more and share. But someone with a bigger mic than me might be able to intervene more effectively...

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

Hello all,

We live in a small quite liberal suburb of Manhattan. A recent proposal spurred me to write. It concerns an obelisk in a local cemetery, serving as a memorial to the surrounding graves.

I was appalled at the suggestion by some "residents", passed on by our Greenburgh Town Supervisor and published in local news, that a memorial column in Mt. Hope Cemetery is "concerning." This is in fact a monument (erected 1897) at the gravesite of dead soldiers, and furthermore is on private, not public, land. I have visited the site, which is the burying ground of approximately 50 Confederate soldiers who moved North after the war, and died here. It has been restored and maintained by the New York branch of the Sons of UNION Veterans of the Civil War.

They meet annually at the site in observation. The words on their website say it best: "We do this not to honor the causes for which they fought, but because we know that there are thousands of Union graves in the South - as there were once thousands of wounded and dying Union soldiers - that received care and compassion from the hands of their former enemies, and their enemies' families. We do for theirs, as we would have them do for ours - and as we know they do."

A larger issue is the destruction of history. Must we follow in the footsteps of the pharaohs who obliterated the names and images of previous rulers, or of the Romans who termed it “damnatio memoriae,” the official governmental destruction of images on coins, statues, etc. One realizes why so very many ancient Greek and Roman marble statues are found headless! The Civil War is part of our history, like it or not, as are the past 152 years of War memorials, statues, songs, poems, as well as their creations, defacements, etc. The public statues, memorials, etc., no matter when erected, are part of the story of our history, and, in my view, should be preserved, either in situ, or at worst transferred to battlefields, et.c, as has been suggested. But in order to "never forget", perhaps they are best left in place with appropriate perspective given. Shall we be remembered for trying to expunge history? Perhaps we should consider book-burning, textbook re-writing.

Perhaps all countries can participate. Shall the British remove all reminders of the upstart revolutionary Americans? They can begin with the statue of George Washington on Trafalgar Square, not to mention Benjamin Franklin's house also in central London.

I say go visit our cemetery in peace, and try to understand our past to advance our future.

David Coffeen, Ph.D.
TESSERACT
Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706


Original Message------

As hideous examples of the racist heritage of America, one or two might be added to the collection of the Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia at Ferris University.

but just one or two.

------------------------------
Kevin Coffee
Oneida, NY
www.museplan.com
------------------------------

Context and interpretation are everything.  This subject may well be a watershed moment for our country where we can all speak truthfully about the subject of the War of the Rebellion, slavery, race relations, etc.  To simply take down and destroy the monuments would be to Serv Pro history - Like it Never Happened.  The war was a great upheaval for our country and has never really been aired out as it should.  <g class="gr_ gr_481 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Punctuation only-del replaceWithoutSep" id="481" data-gr-id="481">Slavery,</g> is a no-no topic unless you take a certain position.  To suggest the indisputable complicity of other Africans in the slave trade always gets you buried under a pile of abuse.  Race relations.  That is a toughy.  At its core, to quote fictional Victorian scoundrel Harry Flashman, "Humanity is beastly and stupid, aye, and helpless, and there's an end to it. And that's as true for Crazy Horse as it was for Custer..."  Humans have always been prone to tribalism and a fear of "The Other."  You are not born with it, certainly, but boy is it easily taught.

So since the history associated with these statues is not going away, despite what disingenuous cultural historians would have, why not remove the statues to battlefields, cemeteries and theme-specific museums where real interpretation can take place?  To do otherwise is a slippery slope to removing from our history all of that which makes us uncomfortable.

------------------------------
David Beard
Executive Director
USS KIDD Veterans Memorial Museum
Baton Rouge LA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2017 07:18 AM
From: Alexander Tronolone
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Hello museum friends,

I've noticed a number of folks who, in an effort to bridge the divide (I believe) over the removal of confederate statues making the argument, "they belong in a museum."

I'm an unequivocal "no" on this, and think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of museums - they are not reliquaries for white supremacist idolatry.

There's lots to develop here (the statues were erected long after the civil war and actually have no "historic" value, how would you feel walking into a museum to be greeted by a confederate, etc.), so I was wondering if anyone has yet wrote about it.

If not I might develop a piece a little more and share. But someone with a bigger mic than me might be able to intervene more effectively...

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

I agree that "the museum" is not and should never be the default response to a quandary about cultural representations. Moreover, the museum itself is a validating and ennobling arena of discourse that establishes both cultural and monetary value for an object.

I think for the time being storage is the right step.

I would like, however, to bring up Grutas Park in Lithuania (down near the Polish border) where a private citizen started collecting Soviet memorials, monuments and related material in order to display it. Now I am not arguing that the guy's motive was pure and noble--he makes his big money in the mushroom trade and the entrance fee to the park was steep, and not just steep by Lithuanian standards. But we walked through the park, which includes statuary, stained glass, guard towers and barbed wire, and railroad cars used to ship Lithuanians to Siberian camps.

It was a sobering place and could certainly have done more in terms of information and interpretation. But it was definitely something that struck me as an important way to keep the awfulness and tragedy of totalitarianism meaningful for generations who never knew it, and I hope never will.

Here's the link to Grutas Park: http://grutoparkas.lt/en_US/

And here is the link to the KGB Museum / Museum of Genocide which is unquestionably the most horrifying "history" experience I have ever had. I was absolutely shaken to the core. http://www.vilnius-tourism.lt/en/what-to-see/museums/museum-of-genocide-victims-kgb/

If we were presenting slavery and related topics with the straightforward unvarnished truth that we should, there would be far fewer people continue to argue that there was something acceptable or justifiable about much slavery and noble about the Confederacy.

Just my opinion, of course.

Ellen B. Cutler
www.ellenbcutler.com

------------------------------
Ellen Cutler
Adjunct Professor
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2017 11:17 AM
From: David Beard
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Context and interpretation are everything.  This subject may well be a watershed moment for our country where we can all speak truthfully about the subject of the War of the Rebellion, slavery, race relations, etc.  To simply take down and destroy the monuments would be to Serv Pro history - Like it Never Happened.  The war was a great upheaval for our country and has never really been aired out as it should.  <g class="gr_ gr_481 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Punctuation only-del replaceWithoutSep" id="481" data-gr-id="481">Slavery,</g> is a no-no topic unless you take a certain position.  To suggest the indisputable complicity of other Africans in the slave trade always gets you buried under a pile of abuse.  Race relations.  That is a toughy.  At its core, to quote fictional Victorian scoundrel Harry Flashman, "Humanity is beastly and stupid, aye, and helpless, and there's an end to it. And that's as true for Crazy Horse as it was for Custer..."  Humans have always been prone to tribalism and a fear of "The Other."  You are not born with it, certainly, but boy is it easily taught.

So since the history associated with these statues is not going away, despite what disingenuous cultural historians would have, why not remove the statues to battlefields, cemeteries and theme-specific museums where real interpretation can take place?  To do otherwise is a slippery slope to removing from our history all of that which makes us uncomfortable.

------------------------------
David Beard
Executive Director
USS KIDD Veterans Memorial Museum
Baton Rouge LA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2017 07:18 AM
From: Alexander Tronolone
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Hello museum friends,

I've noticed a number of folks who, in an effort to bridge the divide (I believe) over the removal of confederate statues making the argument, "they belong in a museum."

I'm an unequivocal "no" on this, and think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of museums - they are not reliquaries for white supremacist idolatry.

There's lots to develop here (the statues were erected long after the civil war and actually have no "historic" value, how would you feel walking into a museum to be greeted by a confederate, etc.), so I was wondering if anyone has yet wrote about it.

If not I might develop a piece a little more and share. But someone with a bigger mic than me might be able to intervene more effectively...

------------------------------
Alexander Tronolone
Manager of Teaching & Learning, Grades 6 - 12+
Brooklyn Historical Society
Brooklyn NY
------------------------------

Original Message------

I agree that "the museum" is not and should never be the default response to a quandary about cultural representations. Moreover, the museum itself is a validating and ennobling arena of discourse that establishes both cultural and monetary value for an object.

I think for the time being storage is the right step.

I would like, however, to bring up Grutas Park in Lithuania (down near the Polish border) where a private citizen started collecting Soviet memorials, monuments and related material in order to display it. Now I am not arguing that the guy's motive was pure and noble--he makes his big money in the mushroom trade and the entrance fee to the park was steep, and not just steep by Lithuanian standards. But we walked through the park, which includes statuary, stained glass, guard towers and barbed wire, and railroad cars used to ship Lithuanians to Siberian camps.

It was a sobering place and could certainly have done more in terms of information and interpretation. But it was definitely something that struck me as an important way to keep the awfulness and tragedy of totalitarianism meaningful for generations who never knew it, and I hope never will.

Here's the link to Grutas Park: http://grutoparkas.lt/en_US/

And here is the link to the KGB Museum / Museum of Genocide which is unquestionably the most horrifying "history" experience I have ever had. I was absolutely shaken to the core. http://www.vilnius-tourism.lt/en/what-to-see/museums/museum-of-genocide-victims-kgb/

If we were presenting slavery and related topics with the straightforward unvarnished truth that we should, there would be far fewer people continue to argue that there was something acceptable or justifiable about much slavery and noble about the Confederacy.

Just my opinion, of course.

Ellen B. Cutler
www.ellenbcutler.com

------------------------------
Ellen Cutler
Adjunct Professor
------------------------------

Additional thoughts:
Many Confederate and Grand  Army of the Republic ststues ate in public squares where it is difficult to post interpretation panels, audio or any other text. Moved to museums, it could be possible to ensure that they could be viewed only after the visitor experienced the museum's interpretation. 
Statuary can be huge, and many museums are not able to accommodate them.  An exhibition of photographs of Confederacy and GAR statuary could include appropriate interpretation and would be good sites for teaching history, historiography, and how to read a statue as public history.




------------------------------
Barbara Cohen-Stratyner PhD
New York NY
Outsidethemuseumblog at Wordpress
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2017 10:29 AM
From: Maribeth Flynn
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

I would echo David Beard that context and interpretation are everything, and what museum educators do every day. Of course, these statues have historical value (without quotes) because they are products of their time; in this case the post-Reconstruction, Jim Crow era, which I believe has never been fully unpacked by our culture. Germany has done a far better job - not perfect - of confronting its dark past than we have done. This is an opportunity to do that by placing these fraught monuments in museums, history museums, public museums and providing opportunities for education and reflection on the underlying horror of our nation: slavery. We need Fred Wilson!

--

Maribeth Flynn
Museum Education Consultant
flynnmb@gmail.com

Original Message------

I agree that "the museum" is not and should never be the default response to a quandary about cultural representations. Moreover, the museum itself is a validating and ennobling arena of discourse that establishes both cultural and monetary value for an object.

I think for the time being storage is the right step.

I would like, however, to bring up Grutas Park in Lithuania (down near the Polish border) where a private citizen started collecting Soviet memorials, monuments and related material in order to display it. Now I am not arguing that the guy's motive was pure and noble--he makes his big money in the mushroom trade and the entrance fee to the park was steep, and not just steep by Lithuanian standards. But we walked through the park, which includes statuary, stained glass, guard towers and barbed wire, and railroad cars used to ship Lithuanians to Siberian camps.

It was a sobering place and could certainly have done more in terms of information and interpretation. But it was definitely something that struck me as an important way to keep the awfulness and tragedy of totalitarianism meaningful for generations who never knew it, and I hope never will.

Here's the link to Grutas Park: http://grutoparkas.lt/en_US/

And here is the link to the KGB Museum / Museum of Genocide which is unquestionably the most horrifying "history" experience I have ever had. I was absolutely shaken to the core. http://www.vilnius-tourism.lt/en/what-to-see/museums/museum-of-genocide-victims-kgb/

If we were presenting slavery and related topics with the straightforward unvarnished truth that we should, there would be far fewer people continue to argue that there was something acceptable or justifiable about much slavery and noble about the Confederacy.

Just my opinion, of course.

Ellen B. Cutler
www.ellenbcutler.com

------------------------------
Ellen Cutler
Adjunct Professor
------------------------------

Barbara:

As a collections manager, your second point was where my mind went.  I don't where we would put such things or how we would haul them.  Not only are they huge, but they likely weigh thousands of pounds.  We recently turned down something that weighed 4,000 pounds because hauling and storing it would've been too difficult and its dimensions were significantly smaller than an equestrian statue.  These statues would be the exact same thing. 

While my personal brain has many thoughts on confederate statuary, my professional brain focused on the practicalities of the question.

------------------------------
Geoffrey Woodcox
Assistant Curator of Collections
State Historical Society of North Dakota
Bismarck ND
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2017 10:07 AM
From: Barbara Cohen-Stratyner
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

Additional thoughts:
Many Confederate and Grand  Army of the Republic ststues ate in public squares where it is difficult to post interpretation panels, audio or any other text. Moved to museums, it could be possible to ensure that they could be viewed only after the visitor experienced the museum's interpretation.
Statuary can be huge, and many museums are not able to accommodate them.  An exhibition of photographs of Confederacy and GAR statuary could include appropriate interpretation and would be good sites for teaching history, historiography, and how to read a statue as public history.




------------------------------
Barbara Cohen-Stratyner PhD
New York NY
Outsidethemuseumblog at Wordpress

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2017 10:29 AM
From: Maribeth Flynn
Subject: Do confederate statues belong in museums?

I would echo David Beard that context and interpretation are everything, and what museum educators do every day. Of course, these statues have historical value (without quotes) because they are products of their time; in this case the post-Reconstruction, Jim Crow era, which I believe has never been fully unpacked by our culture. Germany has done a far better job - not perfect - of confronting its dark past than we have done. This is an opportunity to do that by placing these fraught monuments in museums, history museums, public museums and providing opportunities for education and reflection on the underlying horror of our nation: slavery. We need Fred Wilson!

--

Maribeth Flynn
Museum Education Consultant
flynnmb@gmail.com

Original Message------

I agree that "the museum" is not and should never be the default response to a quandary about cultural representations. Moreover, the museum itself is a validating and ennobling arena of discourse that establishes both cultural and monetary value for an object.

I think for the time being storage is the right step.

I would like, however, to bring up Grutas Park in Lithuania (down near the Polish border) where a private citizen started collecting Soviet memorials, monuments and related material in order to display it. Now I am not arguing that the guy's motive was pure and noble--he makes his big money in the mushroom trade and the entrance fee to the park was steep, and not just steep by Lithuanian standards. But we walked through the park, which includes statuary, stained glass, guard towers and barbed wire, and railroad cars used to ship Lithuanians to Siberian camps.

It was a sobering place and could certainly have done more in terms of information and interpretation. But it was definitely something that struck me as an important way to keep the awfulness and tragedy of totalitarianism meaningful for generations who never knew it, and I hope never will.

Here's the link to Grutas Park: http://grutoparkas.lt/en_US/

And here is the link to the KGB Museum / Museum of Genocide which is unquestionably the most horrifying "history" experience I have ever had. I was absolutely shaken to the core. http://www.vilnius-tourism.lt/en/what-to-see/museums/museum-of-genocide-victims-kgb/

If we were presenting slavery and related topics with the straightforward unvarnished truth that we should, there would be far fewer people continue to argue that there was something acceptable or justifiable about much slavery and noble about the Confederacy.

Just my opinion, of course.

Ellen B. Cutler
www.ellenbcutler.com

------------------------------
Ellen Cutler
Adjunct Professor
------------------------------

Original Message------

I agree that "the museum" is not and should never be the default response to a quandary about cultural representations. Moreover, the museum itself is a validating and ennobling arena of discourse that establishes both cultural and monetary value for an object.

I think for the time being storage is the right step.

I would like, however, to bring up Grutas Park in Lithuania (down near the Polish border) where a private citizen started collecting Soviet memorials, monuments and related material in order to display it. Now I am not arguing that the guy's motive was pure and noble--he makes his big money in the mushroom trade and the entrance fee to the park was steep, and not just steep by Lithuanian standards. But we walked through the park, which includes statuary, stained glass, guard towers and barbed wire, and railroad cars used to ship Lithuanians to Siberian camps.

It was a sobering place and could certainly have done more in terms of information and interpretation. But it was definitely something that struck me as an important way to keep the awfulness and tragedy of totalitarianism meaningful for generations who never knew it, and I hope never will.

Here's the link to Grutas Park: http://grutoparkas.lt/en_US/

And here is the link to the KGB Museum / Museum of Genocide which is unquestionably the most horrifying "history" experience I have ever had. I was absolutely shaken to the core. http://www.vilnius-tourism.lt/en/what-to-see/museums/museum-of-genocide-victims-kgb/

If we were presenting slavery and related topics with the straightforward unvarnished truth that we should, there would be far fewer people continue to argue that there was something acceptable or justifiable about much slavery and noble about the Confederacy.

Just my opinion, of course.

Ellen B. Cutler
www.ellenbcutler.com

------------------------------
Ellen Cutler
Adjunct Professor
------------------------------